Effects of developer dilutions

[ryanmills]

I'm rather new to developing film but i'm starting to tinker. I'm curious what the effects are if I start changing the dilutions. Right now im working with HC110 and Tri-X 320. I have been using the normal 1:31 dilution @ 5:30. I found i was a bit under exposed and pushed to 6:15 and im getting usable results. I was reading about some different timing and dilutions but im not clear on what they will effect.

For example, if I change the dilution to 1:15 and keep the same time will get the same result as developing for double the time at 1:15 or would i just see an increase in contrast.

[StoneNYC]

First you must recognize that that Pushing doesn't correct exposure it pushed the highlights up, if you want to fix exposure, try shooting at EI 250.

I know many Tri-X users who shoot 400 speed Tri-X at 320 so try shooting 250.

As for dilutions, there are many options.

Experiment :) go crazy! Haha

[Paul Hoyt]

HC-110 is a great developer. If you make your solution twice as dilute [1+31 to 1+63], just double your time. If you use an intermediate dilution, you can calculate your development time from your initial dilution/development time. In you question about how long to develop at 1+15, you would cut your time in half since the developer is twice as strong; 3 min 7 seconds.

[ryanmills]

So dev at 1:31 for 6 mins would be the same as as 1:63 for 12 mins?

I have not been able to wrap my head around EI vs ISO vs ASA and what bloody times to develop at. I did a test shoot at ISO 250 and extending my dev time but it left a rather flat image. That's why I wondered about mixing HC110 strong first off to shorten the time and wondered if I would increase contrast. I have not seen much change speeding up my agitation.

[Dennis]

Wouldn't volume of developer and amount film processed have an affect on the relation between dilution and time? If you have stronger developer in the same end volume wouldn't the fall off of activity be less? I guess a quick test would tell but it seems to me that cutting the strength in half might necessitate more than double the time if you are working with a minimal volume.
Dennis

[StoneNYC]

So dev at 1:31 for 6 mins would be the same as as 1:63 for 12 mins?

I have not been able to wrap my head around EI vs ISO vs ASA and what bloody times to develop at. I did a test shoot at ISO 250 and extending my dev time but it left a rather flat image. That's why I wondered about mixing HC110 strong first off to shorten the time and wondered if I would increase contrast. I have not seen much change speeding up my agitation.

For all intents and purposes, ASA and ISO are the same, many film guys use ASA when referencing film and ISO to speak about digital (ASA was the old standard). EI is Exposure Index, just assume when someone says EI they are often saying ... "I shot this shot of tri-x at EI200" they mean that even though the actual speed of the film is 400, they shot it at 200, exposure index is what you are shooting at, ASA/ISO is the speed of the film.

You CAN say "I shot Tri-x at EI400" but that's just redundant. EI is often used when there is an adjustment.

Hope that helps

[ryanmills]

So really EI just means its not the rated film speed but the speed is still the same regardless EI400 = ASA400. So if I shot Tri-X 320 at 100, it would be EI100? Sometimes the logic of film completely eludes me.

[Dan Henderson]

Ryan, please don't take this as a criticism or put-down, it is not intended as such. But by reading your posts it sounds like you are pretty new and inexperienced to film exposure and development. My advice to you is to settle on one film, one developer, and one development routine, and stick with it until you get your process nailed down tight. Once you can produce consistent, repeatable results from that combo, then buy one of the many good books on the market and begin learning about the variables (exposure index, development time, developer dilution, agitation schemes, etc) that you can employ to produce different results. Experiment with these variables one at a time, and keep good notes so that you can interpret your results.

[ryanmills]

I dont plan to change dev or film, just the process and yes im fine using the standard times, i just don't like the look and I'm just trying to sort out what changes might make a difference.

[StoneNYC]

So really EI just means its not the rated film speed but the speed is still the same regardless EI400 = ASA400. So if I shot Tri-X 320 at 100, it would be EI100? Sometimes the logic of film completely eludes me.

Essentially for all intents and purposes here, you're getting it, it's more complex but that's the long and short of it as far as what you need to know for now :)

[Randy]

Ryan, don't listen to Dan above. Do like I have done and waist years bouncing from film / developer combinations, keep poor (if any) notes, sell your equipment because obviously, the reason for my grainy, flat / contrasty negatives is because I just need to shoot "larger" film.

No, really, his advise is very good. If I had of done that years ago, I would have been much more satisfied with my images.

ASA, I believe, was the old American Standards Association and ISO - International Standards Organization, replaced it years ago.

I use HC-110, not because I love it, but because it is very economical. The concentrate lasts for ever. I use dilution "H" for two reasons - for some films, "B" would be to short of as development time, say 3 minutes, so with "H", you can stretch it to 6 minutes, and because I am using 1/2 the developer, there by saving money. I think quite often film manufacturers do not recommend development times less than 5 minutes do to the chance of uneven development.

If I remember correctly, the saying was - Exposure affects negative density, development affects negative contrast. One thing I haven't read in the comments above is agitation. If your negatives are flat (lack contrast), you may get a boost in contrast by agitating more often during development.

Dennis, above mentioned the relationship between "...volume of developer and amount film processed...". I have recently read that there are guide lines for the amount of working solution you need to use with a certain amount of film being processed. In other words (for example only), if you have been processing 10 sheets of 4X5 film in 32 oz of HC-110 "H", but decide to process 20 sheets tomorrow in the same amount of developer, the Kodak data sheet for that developer may require you to use 40 oz of developer for that much film, due to the developer becoming exhausted during the process.

[ryanmills]

lol... I get that im new but for the sake of anyone else saying the same thing. I shot about 200 sheets the first weekend with the camera and then spend nearly 16 hours developing over three days. I managed to over and underexpose, under and over develop and thru that process yes I did find the sweet spot. Yes, I could go out and do the exact same thing and get the default results. First 20-30 sheets were rough, few scratches, missed a tray completely and drop it in the water bath, forgot to set the timer right, dropped film and so forth. The last 100 went thru just fine, granted i was about as drained as I could be just standing there for 4 hours at a time. Plus the lovely rash on my fore arms from leaning on a wet counter is awesome. I just plain don't like the look. Again i'm not changing film or developer, i picked both because there are two photographers I greatly respect that use both and get awesome results. So I figure its push/pull, dilution or agitation or a combo of all. I was just simply wonder whats worth trying and wants pointless and the first was dilutions. Perhaps its wasteful but im just planning on shooting the same shot under what Im guessing what is similar lighting 10 times and one by one mix them one with some dummy sheets and try some different things and see what I get.

[StoneNYC]

lol... I get that im new but for the sake of anyone else saying the same thing. I shot about 200 sheets the first weekend with the camera and then spend nearly 16 hours developing over three days. I managed to over and underexpose, under and over develop and thru that process yes I did find the sweet spot. Yes, I could go out and do the exact same thing and get the default results. First 20-30 sheets were rough, few scratches, missed a tray completely and drop it in the water bath, forgot to set the timer right, dropped film and so forth. The last 100 went thru just fine, granted i was about as drained as I could be just standing there for 4 hours at a time. Plus the lovely rash on my fore arms from leaning on a wet counter is awesome. I just plain don't like the look. Again i'm not changing film or developer, i picked both because there are two photographers I greatly respect that use both and get awesome results. So I figure its push/pull, dilution or agitation or a combo of all. I was just simply wonder whats worth trying and wants pointless and the first was dilutions. Perhaps its wasteful but im just planning on shooting the same shot under what Im guessing what is similar lighting 10 times and one by one mix them one with some dummy sheets and try some different things and see what I get.

200 sheets? Wow either your friends are really nice to you, or you're rich lol.

Also wear chemical gloves and a mask or that rash could become a permanent reaction and you'll end up not being able to process anything.

Good luck :)

[ryanmills]

My poor friends, I have every weekend for the next few weeks lined up with different people. They are going to be pretty sick of me by the time I get done. I did invest a small fortune in Tri-X but figure its the best way to learn.

I think the rash was my mistake of wearing a long sleeve shirt that got some chems on it and i kept pulling it up and down. My hands are fine it was just where I was rest my arms while washing them, so god help me one by one in the sink. Right after a jobo a good film washer is on my list.

[Henry Ambrose]

Slow down.

Burning through film won't get you anything but lighter in the wallet. You need to do a simple test. This is not rocket science but you do need to be consistent and careful or your results will be meaningless.

Set up some controlled tests to find a film speed and developer technique that gives you the look you want. Once you have that under controlled conditions then go out and shoot some more tests under different conditions. Your controlled scene conditions should include good photographic light. Without that your film will look crappy. Crappy light, crappy negatives - I promise.

For your controlled test, set your meter to 200 and meter the scene as you normally do. Many call this "rating" or "shooting" the film at 200 - its not the ISO or ASA, that number is printed on the box and has little to do with anything we're talking about except a rough guide or more properly a highly technical rating that gives particular results under scientific conditions. I'm picking 200 because that is likely where you'll find the sweet spot.

Anyway, shoot 3 sheets all the same exposure. Develop one for the time you are using now, one for 20% less and the third sheet for 20% longer. Be sure to develop them all the same way (agitation, etc.) Vary only the development time for each sheet. One of them will look better. Go from there and maybe repeat the test using the best looking sheet as your guide - one developed longer, one shorter, about 20% difference for each. Once you get a feel for what looks good, lock that method and use it for film you shoot in the real world and make some prints.

As for developer concentration, look at a chart for HC110 and just pick a dilution that takes around 10 minutes to develop at your chosen 200 film speed. Don't change this until you've shot tests and a good bit of real world film. Once you've run the test and picked your numbers, do not change anything in the exposure and development technique. Do it exactly the same every time. Exactly the same for a couple of months.

Come back and show us the results.